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Post by moekid on May 14, 2019 10:53:01 GMT -7
A lot of people admire NE's OL Coach Dante Scarnecchia and deservedly so. The Pats consistently do very well indeed with unheralded mid - late rd, UDFA OL personnel. My question would be " Are they an immediate success, start and play well their first year in the NFL?"..or does NE bring them along over a period of time? HC Lynn and his OL Coach Pat Meyer are entering their 3rd year with the Chargers. If it's possible for others to develop OL personnel, why not us? For my part, I believe hand wringing over OL is currently premature. We did OK last year and should be better. It remains to be proven, either way. Patriots "mid/late round, UDFA OL personnel" is mainly found at the IOL positions (G/C). But the Patriots have always paid particular attention to the quality of their OT's. From 2011-2017, they had 1st round draft pick Nate Solder playing LT. In 2018, they drafted 1st round pick Isaiah Wynn. Prior to Solder, they had 2nd rounder Matt Light (2001-2011) at LT. Solder actually played RT in 2011. 2nd rounder Sebastian Vollmer (2009-2015) took over RT in 2012. That's how you do it people! In 2011, they had a 2nd round veteran at LT (Light), a newly drafted 1st rounder (Solder) at RT, and a 2nd rounder (Vollmer) riding pine as a swing tackle. This is no mistake... they are not drafting OT's in the (5th)...guys that used to be DT's...or developmental 3rd rounders from Sioux Falls. Their franchise is their QB. There is a plan. Even when their 1st round OT (Wynn) goes down with an achilles tear in TC... there is a plan. Anyone know how LaAdrian Waddle and Trent Brown came to be in New England...? They were proven/productive vets coming off injury and via trade respectively... PRE-INJURY! Marcus Cannon was the only mid/late pick @ot that was "developed". And was given 5 years before he started @rt... Not really boltnut but the real issue with the Patriots, as with any team, is getting pressure up the middle and the Pats have a UDFA center and mid-late guys at the OG positions. That's no better than us so they either draft much, much better or coach much, much better.
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Post by chargerfreak on May 14, 2019 11:18:31 GMT -7
Patriots "mid/late round, UDFA OL personnel" is mainly found at the IOL positions (G/C). But the Patriots have always paid particular attention to the quality of their OT's. From 2011-2017, they had 1st round draft pick Nate Solder playing LT. In 2018, they drafted 1st round pick Isaiah Wynn. Prior to Solder, they had 2nd rounder Matt Light (2001-2011) at LT. Solder actually played RT in 2011. 2nd rounder Sebastian Vollmer (2009-2015) took over RT in 2012. That's how you do it people! In 2011, they had a 2nd round veteran at LT (Light), a newly drafted 1st rounder (Solder) at RT, and a 2nd rounder (Vollmer) riding pine as a swing tackle. This is no mistake... they are not drafting OT's in the (5th)...guys that used to be DT's...or developmental 3rd rounders from Sioux Falls. Their franchise is their QB. There is a plan. Even when their 1st round OT (Wynn) goes down with an achilles tear in TC... there is a plan. Anyone know how LaAdrian Waddle and Trent Brown came to be in New England...? They were proven/productive vets coming off injury and via trade respectively... PRE-INJURY! Marcus Cannon was the only mid/late pick @ot that was "developed". And was given 5 years before he started @rt... Not really boltnut but the real issue with the Patriots, as with any team, is getting pressure up the middle and the Pats have a UDFA center and mid-late guys at the OG positions. That's no better than us so they either draft much, much better or coach much, much better. Coaching and CULTURE. You don't do your job, and Bill will let you go on a Weds. in week 7 of the season. He don't care, and all the players know it.
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Post by boltnut on May 14, 2019 18:14:50 GMT -7
Patriots "mid/late round, UDFA OL personnel" is mainly found at the IOL positions (G/C). But the Patriots have always paid particular attention to the quality of their OT's. From 2011-2017, they had 1st round draft pick Nate Solder playing LT. In 2018, they drafted 1st round pick Isaiah Wynn. Prior to Solder, they had 2nd rounder Matt Light (2001-2011) at LT. Solder actually played RT in 2011. 2nd rounder Sebastian Vollmer (2009-2015) took over RT in 2012. That's how you do it people! In 2011, they had a 2nd round veteran at LT (Light), a newly drafted 1st rounder (Solder) at RT, and a 2nd rounder (Vollmer) riding pine as a swing tackle. This is no mistake... they are not drafting OT's in the (5th)...guys that used to be DT's...or developmental 3rd rounders from Sioux Falls. Their franchise is their QB. There is a plan. Even when their 1st round OT (Wynn) goes down with an achilles tear in TC... there is a plan. Anyone know how LaAdrian Waddle and Trent Brown came to be in New England...? They were proven/productive vets coming off injury and via trade respectively... PRE-INJURY! Marcus Cannon was the only mid/late pick @ot that was "developed". And was given 5 years before he started @rt... Not really boltnut but the real issue with the Patriots, as with any team, is getting pressure up the middle and the Pats have a UDFA center and mid-late guys at the OG positions. That's no better than us so they either draft much, much better or coach much, much better. I'm sure Dante Scarneccio is one of the premier line coaches and allows the Patriots the ability to draft mid-round IOL's. But let's not pretend these guys are scrubs to begin with. Thuney was a 3rd rounder and Mason was a 4th rounder. Both guys were quality OG's in college. Great run blockers who could get to the 2nd level. And before Andrews was signed as an UDFA, Brian Stork was a 2nd rounder and starter. I could offer my analysis on David Andrews... but I've been asked to not mention his name again... Point is... they do a terrific job of identifying OL talent. And they've had either a 2nd rounder or a 1st rounder manning the OT position since 2001. In certain stretches, they've had both a 1st rounder AND 2nd rounder manning the OT positions... them's the facts. They value the OL positions. They draft them early and often. They are always deep along the OL. Question: Wouldn't it take pressure off of your IOL if you had OT's that didn't always need help from OG's, RB's, and TE's...? Wouldn't it be nice if you could make other team's defenses account for your RB's out of the backfield (White) or cover your TE's (Gronk)...? Why not use all of your weapons on offense rather than have them cover for deficiencies along the OL...?
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Post by boltnut on May 14, 2019 19:27:51 GMT -7
And before we all go too crazy with the DL interior pass rush thing... take a gander at Patriots depth chart along the DL. www.patriots.com/team/depth-chartTalk about mid-late round, UDFA's.... 30 sacks (31st in NFL) last year.
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Post by joemcrugby on May 14, 2019 19:43:33 GMT -7
And before we all go too crazy with the DL interior pass rush thing... take a gander at Patriots depth chart along the DL. www.patriots.com/team/depth-chartTalk about mid-late round, UDFA's.... 30 sacks (31st in NFL) last year. And yet PR was forced time and time again to get rid of it / throw it away within a couple of seconds due to the Patriots rampaging interior pass rush. The Patsies absolutely destroyed the pocket in the divisional round game by overwhelming the Chargers interior line.
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Post by boltnut on May 14, 2019 21:17:16 GMT -7
And before we all go too crazy with the DL interior pass rush thing... take a gander at Patriots depth chart along the DL. www.patriots.com/team/depth-chartTalk about mid-late round, UDFA's.... 30 sacks (31st in NFL) last year. And yet PR was forced time and time again to get rid of it / throw it away within a couple of seconds due to the Patriots rampaging interior pass rush. The Patsies absolutely destroyed the pocket in the divisional round game by overwhelming the Chargers interior line. Apparently, running the ball is still important. 10 rushes vs. 51 passes is no way to beat a team. Of course stopping them on defense is a good idea, too. It wasn't just the IOL that was overwhelmed...
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Post by boltnut on May 14, 2019 21:44:44 GMT -7
Patriots lost to 5 teams last year. None of them were playoff teams. What tendencies do you see...? www.nfl.com/schedules/2018/REG/PATRIOTSI see teams that: 1) Stayed balanced (run vs. pass) on offense. Although Jax went to the air alot... still rushed for over 100 yards. 2) Had LB's and CB's that cover well... man and zone. 3) Had leads early. 4) Played at home.
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Post by moekid on May 14, 2019 23:50:00 GMT -7
Not really boltnut but the real issue with the Patriots, as with any team, is getting pressure up the middle and the Pats have a UDFA center and mid-late guys at the OG positions. That's no better than us so they either draft much, much better or coach much, much better. I'm sure Dante Scarneccio is one of the premier line coaches and allows the Patriots the ability to draft mid-round IOL's. But let's not pretend these guys are scrubs to begin with. Thuney was a 3rd rounder and Mason was a 4th rounder. Both guys were quality OG's in college. Great run blockers who could get to the 2nd level. And before Andrews was signed as an UDFA, Brian Stork was a 2nd rounder and starter. I could offer my analysis on David Andrews... but I've been asked to not mention his name again... Point is... they do a terrific job of identifying OL talent. And they've had either a 2nd rounder or a 1st rounder manning the OT position since 2001. In certain stretches, they've had both a 1st rounder AND 2nd rounder manning the OT positions... them's the facts. They value the OL positions. They draft them early and often. They are always deep along the OL. Question: Wouldn't it take pressure off of your IOL if you had OT's that didn't always need help from OG's, RB's, and TE's...? Wouldn't it be nice if you could make other team's defenses account for your RB's out of the backfield (White) or cover your TE's (Gronk)...? Why not use all of your weapons on offense rather than have them cover for deficiencies along the OL...? You should read the excerpt I posted on the previous page. Their Super Bowl winning oline was mid to late rounders including both OT’s. They may be better than anyone else at identifying talent. That’s certainly possible. I think they’re better than anyone at coaching them up.
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Post by chargerfreak on May 15, 2019 3:33:18 GMT -7
Patriots lost to 5 teams last year. None of them were playoff teams. What tendencies do you see...? www.nfl.com/schedules/2018/REG/PATRIOTSI see teams that: 1) Stayed balanced (run vs. pass) on offense. Although Jax went to the air alot... still rushed for over 100 yards. 2) Had LB's and CB's that cover well... man and zone. 3) Had leads early. 4) Played at home. Start slow every year. Give the league a false sense of security The AFC East has sucked for years and years Swing in a hammock on cruise control until its money time. Then Assassinate.
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Post by joemcrugby on May 15, 2019 8:07:03 GMT -7
And yet PR was forced time and time again to get rid of it / throw it away within a couple of seconds due to the Patriots rampaging interior pass rush. The Patsies absolutely destroyed the pocket in the divisional round game by overwhelming the Chargers interior line. Apparently, running the ball is still important. 10 rushes vs. 51 passes is no way to beat a team. Of course stopping them on defense is a good idea, too. It wasn't just the IOL that was overwhelmed... No healthy linebackers will lead to the Patsies running the ball 51 times, and the opposition scoring 5 TD's before you can blink an eye tends to take away one's running game. Agree that it wasn't just the interior OL that got overwhelmed, but that part of the game was a fair reenactment of Attila and the Huns (great name suggestion for a band) storming their way through the Balkans and the Danubian frontier!
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Post by sonorajim on May 15, 2019 11:58:40 GMT -7
And yet PR was forced time and time again to get rid of it / throw it away within a couple of seconds due to the Patriots rampaging interior pass rush. The Patsies absolutely destroyed the pocket in the divisional round game by overwhelming the Chargers interior line. Apparently, running the ball is still important. 10 rushes vs. 51 passes is no way to beat a team. Of course stopping them on defense is a good idea, too. It wasn't just the IOL that was overwhelmed... You noticed! The Chargers offense was playing from behind on their 1st possession. The NE offense took the opening kickoff & went through our D like a hot knife through butter. NE's 5 consecutive offensive TDs made us a little one dimensional. Having watched our trick 4-1-6 defense v Bal, BB knew what he wanted if they won the toss.
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Post by chargerfreak on May 15, 2019 13:11:50 GMT -7
Apparently, running the ball is still important. 10 rushes vs. 51 passes is no way to beat a team. Of course stopping them on defense is a good idea, too. It wasn't just the IOL that was overwhelmed... You noticed! The Chargers offense was playing from behind on their 1st possession. The NE offense took the opening kickoff & went through our D like a hot knife through butter. NE's 5 consecutive offensive TDs made us a little one dimensional. Having watched our trick 4-1-6 defense v Bal, BB knew what he wanted if they won the toss. He knew what he wanted if they won the toss, lost the toss, or threw the coin into the river........................
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Post by sonorajim on May 15, 2019 13:32:08 GMT -7
You noticed! The Chargers offense was playing from behind on their 1st possession. The NE offense took the opening kickoff & went through our D like a hot knife through butter. NE's 5 consecutive offensive TDs made us a little one dimensional. Having watched our trick 4-1-6 defense v Bal, BB knew what he wanted if they won the toss. He knew what he wanted if they won the toss, lost the toss, or threw the coin into the river........................ LOL! I'm sure that is true. Taking the opening kickoff was simply the easiest path. Our offense was a bigger threat before the game started. The threat edged toward zero rapidly while NE beat our D like the drum set in the Inna Gada Da Vida solo.
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Post by boltnut on May 15, 2019 19:51:26 GMT -7
Apparently, running the ball is still important. 10 rushes vs. 51 passes is no way to beat a team. Of course stopping them on defense is a good idea, too. It wasn't just the IOL that was overwhelmed... You noticed! The Chargers offense was playing from behind on their 1st possession. The NE offense took the opening kickoff & went through our D like a hot knife through butter. NE's 5 consecutive offensive TDs made us a little one dimensional. Having watched our trick 4-1-6 defense v Bal, BB knew what he wanted if they won the toss. Everyone and their mother noticed. To play a dime defense, you have to have stout DT's to protect against the run and keep your ILB clean. Mebane, Jones, Philon, and Square got man-handled in the run game. OG's and OC's were releasing to the second level every run play. Combine the fact that smallish LB's (Phillips and Addae) had to move closer to the LOS to protect against the run while CB's continued to play off-zone coverage... and you had the makings of a slaughter. But with the injuries on defense (Luiget and Perryman) everyone knew that the only chance the Chargers had was to be effective/efficient on offense. Which they weren't. The Patriots knew that once they got ahead, the Chargers would abandon the run and go to the air. So they stacked the LOS, ran stunts, twists, and blitzed LB's from various spots. The IOL were confused all game. They lined LB's head-up over our guards, faked blitzes, made us commit, and then ran stunts from the outside. And make no mistake, the OT's were just as bad (if not worse) than the IOL. Tevi was horrendous! Both sacks came from the outside. And multiple times OT's got beat on inside moves across their faces to flush Rivers out. It was a total mess on every level. Chargers should have been attacking the outside with their WR's and RB's and dragging across the middle on short routes. Utter failure by the coaching staff. We never had a chance and did little in the draft to address any of our weaknesses against the Patriots.
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Post by moekid on May 15, 2019 21:42:00 GMT -7
You noticed! The Chargers offense was playing from behind on their 1st possession. The NE offense took the opening kickoff & went through our D like a hot knife through butter. NE's 5 consecutive offensive TDs made us a little one dimensional. Having watched our trick 4-1-6 defense v Bal, BB knew what he wanted if they won the toss. Everyone and their mother noticed. To play a dime defense, you have to have stout DT's to protect against the run and keep your ILB clean. Mebane, Jones, Philon, and Square got man-handled in the run game. OG's and OC's were releasing to the second level every run play. Combine the fact that smallish LB's (Phillips and Addae) had to move closer to the LOS to protect against the run while CB's continued to play off-zone coverage... and you had the makings of a slaughter. But with the injuries on defense (Luiget and Perryman) everyone knew that the only chance the Chargers had was to be effective/efficient on offense. Which they weren't. The Patriots knew that once they got ahead, the Chargers would abandon the run and go to the air. So they stacked the LOS, ran stunts, twists, and blitzed LB's from various spots. The IOL were confused all game. They lined LB's head-up over our guards, faked blitzes, made us commit, and then ran stunts from the outside. And make no mistake, the OT's were just as bad (if not worse) than the IOL. Tevi was horrendous! Both sacks came from the outside. And multiple times OT's got beat on inside moves across their faces to flush Rivers out. It was a total mess on every level. Chargers should have been attacking the outside with their WR's and RB's and dragging across the middle on short routes. Utter failure by the coaching staff. We never had a chance and did little in the draft to address any of our weaknesses against the Patriots. How would u suggest addressing “utter failure by the coaching staff” and a total mess on every level in the draft?
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