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Post by cthommes on May 15, 2019 22:33:38 GMT -7
Everyone and their mother noticed. To play a dime defense, you have to have stout DT's to protect against the run and keep your ILB clean. Mebane, Jones, Philon, and Square got man-handled in the run game. OG's and OC's were releasing to the second level every run play. Combine the fact that smallish LB's (Phillips and Addae) had to move closer to the LOS to protect against the run while CB's continued to play off-zone coverage... and you had the makings of a slaughter. But with the injuries on defense (Luiget and Perryman) everyone knew that the only chance the Chargers had was to be effective/efficient on offense. Which they weren't. The Patriots knew that once they got ahead, the Chargers would abandon the run and go to the air. So they stacked the LOS, ran stunts, twists, and blitzed LB's from various spots. The IOL were confused all game. They lined LB's head-up over our guards, faked blitzes, made us commit, and then ran stunts from the outside. And make no mistake, the OT's were just as bad (if not worse) than the IOL. Tevi was horrendous! Both sacks came from the outside. And multiple times OT's got beat on inside moves across their faces to flush Rivers out. It was a total mess on every level. Chargers should have been attacking the outside with their WR's and RB's and dragging across the middle on short routes. Utter failure by the coaching staff. We never had a chance and did little in the draft to address any of our weaknesses against the Patriots. How would u suggest addressing “utter failure by the coaching staff” and a total mess on every level in the draft? Simple. Draft 6 OTs and an edge rusher. The rest falls into place. |
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Post by chargerfreak on May 16, 2019 3:55:05 GMT -7
How would u suggest addressing “utter failure by the coaching staff” and a total mess on every level in the draft? Simple. Draft 6 OTs and an edge rusher. The rest falls into place. <iframe width="21.399999999999977" height="5.0800000000000125" style="position: absolute; width: 21.399999999999977px; height: 5.0800000000000125px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_71363460" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="21.399999999999977" height="5.0800000000000125" style="position: absolute; width: 21.4px; height: 5.08px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1012px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_4675093" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="21.399999999999977" height="5.0800000000000125" style="position: absolute; width: 21.4px; height: 5.08px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 192px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_41133544" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="21.399999999999977" height="5.0800000000000125" style="position: absolute; width: 21.4px; height: 5.08px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1012px; top: 192px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_73352311" scrolling="no"></iframe> I'm sure Sioux Falls had plenty left to get.
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Post by sonorajim on May 16, 2019 9:36:37 GMT -7
How would u suggest addressing “utter failure by the coaching staff” and a total mess on every level in the draft? Simple. Draft 6 OTs and an edge rusher. The rest falls into place. LOL! Obviously! Who needs DT, LB, FS? Just outscore them like the LAR!
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Post by boltnut on May 16, 2019 11:22:43 GMT -7
Everyone and their mother noticed. To play a dime defense, you have to have stout DT's to protect against the run and keep your ILB clean. Mebane, Jones, Philon, and Square got man-handled in the run game. OG's and OC's were releasing to the second level every run play. Combine the fact that smallish LB's (Phillips and Addae) had to move closer to the LOS to protect against the run while CB's continued to play off-zone coverage... and you had the makings of a slaughter. But with the injuries on defense (Luiget and Perryman) everyone knew that the only chance the Chargers had was to be effective/efficient on offense. Which they weren't. The Patriots knew that once they got ahead, the Chargers would abandon the run and go to the air. So they stacked the LOS, ran stunts, twists, and blitzed LB's from various spots. The IOL were confused all game. They lined LB's head-up over our guards, faked blitzes, made us commit, and then ran stunts from the outside. And make no mistake, the OT's were just as bad (if not worse) than the IOL. Tevi was horrendous! Both sacks came from the outside. And multiple times OT's got beat on inside moves across their faces to flush Rivers out. It was a total mess on every level. Chargers should have been attacking the outside with their WR's and RB's and dragging across the middle on short routes. Utter failure by the coaching staff. We never had a chance and did little in the draft to address any of our weaknesses against the Patriots. How would u suggest addressing “utter failure by the coaching staff” and a total mess on every level in the draft? Don't know if you were following my posts on CMB. But I've been pleading for the Chargers to draft a quality OT for years now... and at present, we really need two of them. OT's that are both really good at run-blocking AND pass-blocking. Had we been able to run the ball better, we would have controlled TOP and kept Brady on the bench. Every team that beat NE last year ran the ball really well... Titans, Steelers, Jaguars, Dolphins.... even the Lions! All of those teams have invested in 1st round OT's (or resigned/extended a quality UDFA OT that proved to play at a PB level... Villanueva). They controlled the LOS and got out to early leads because of it. Very average RB's had very good games and opened up the passing game. I was finally excited to see the Chargers invest a 2nd/3rd round picks on their OG's. So far, that move hasn't panned out. But Lamp will be healthy this year and I believe Feeney will improve... he's actually a very good run-blocker.
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Post by boltnut on May 16, 2019 11:45:26 GMT -7
How would u suggest addressing “utter failure by the coaching staff” and a total mess on every level in the draft? Simple. Draft 6 OTs and an edge rusher. The rest falls into place. Since the end of 2007 season (when our OL started breaking down) we've drafted 4 OT's... that's 12 years. Corey Clark (7th), Fluker (1st), Tevi (6th), and Pipkins (3rd). The only serious attempt at OT was Fluker. And half the experts knew he was a guard. Of the people that thought he was an OT, all of them knew he was RT-only. Before we cry for 6 OT's, let's try 1 OT. One that is actually good. One that isn't an OG/RT-only... We've had multiple chances. Meanwhile, the Eagles traded up to get Andre Dillard in front of the Houston Texans (who got stuck with Tytus Howard). They obviously get it. We obviously don't.
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Post by boltnut on May 16, 2019 11:52:33 GMT -7
Simple. Draft 6 OTs and an edge rusher. The rest falls into place. LOL! Obviously! Who needs DT, LB, FS? Just outscore them like the LAR! Where did I ever claim that...? For the record, my mock draft was: 1. OT 2. FS 3. WR 4. DT 5. Edge 6. RB 7. LB Feel free to post your own draft on the Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda thread. So far, only 1 taker. The rest are standing pat on Chargers draft picks... blasting anyone who doesn't stand in line.
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Post by moekid on May 16, 2019 11:56:43 GMT -7
Simple. Draft 6 OTs and an edge rusher. The rest falls into place. Since the end of 2007 season (when our OL started breaking down) we've drafted 4 OT's... that's 12 years. Corey Clark (7th), Fluker (1st), Tevi (6th), and Pipkins (3rd). The only serious attempt at OT was Fluker. And half the experts knew he was a guard. Of the people that thought he was an OT, all of them knew he was RT-only. Before we cry for 6 OT's, let's try 1 OT. One that is actually good. One that isn't an OG/RT-only... We've had multiple chances. Meanwhile, the Eagles traded up to get Andre Dillard in front of the Houston Texans (who got stuck with Tytus Howard). They obviously get it. We obviously don't. They drafted pro-bowler Marcus McNeil in 2006 so they didn't need to draft an LT for a bit until he got hurt in 2011 after signing a big deal a year or two earlier. Then tried with Gaither. I shouldn't even say his name. Now, we have Okung, who is a pro bowler, and apparently Pipkins (3rd rounder) as his understudy.
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Post by boltnut on May 16, 2019 14:07:43 GMT -7
I'm sure Dante Scarneccio is one of the premier line coaches and allows the Patriots the ability to draft mid-round IOL's. But let's not pretend these guys are scrubs to begin with. Thuney was a 3rd rounder and Mason was a 4th rounder. Both guys were quality OG's in college. Great run blockers who could get to the 2nd level. And before Andrews was signed as an UDFA, Brian Stork was a 2nd rounder and starter. I could offer my analysis on David Andrews... but I've been asked to not mention his name again... Point is... they do a terrific job of identifying OL talent. And they've had either a 2nd rounder or a 1st rounder manning the OT position since 2001. In certain stretches, they've had both a 1st rounder AND 2nd rounder manning the OT positions... them's the facts. They value the OL positions. They draft them early and often. They are always deep along the OL. Question: Wouldn't it take pressure off of your IOL if you had OT's that didn't always need help from OG's, RB's, and TE's...? Wouldn't it be nice if you could make other team's defenses account for your RB's out of the backfield (White) or cover your TE's (Gronk)...? Why not use all of your weapons on offense rather than have them cover for deficiencies along the OL...? You should read the excerpt I posted on the previous page. Their Super Bowl winning oline was mid to late rounders including both OT’s. They may be better than anyone else at identifying talent. That’s certainly possible. I think they’re better than anyone at coaching them up. I'm well aware of how NE put their OL together. There are several things you left out, however. I addressed many of those in a previous post but will add to that now... First off, Thuney and Mason were both quality OG's in college and got drafted where good OG's get drafted (3rd and 4th rounds). Secondly, Andrews going undrafted was just a joke. Part of it was that draft was deep in IOL. Some experts worried that his frame wouldn't hold much more weight (295). But I had him as a 5th rounder. I raved about him back in the CMB days. His ability to pull, get to the second level, and screen block were better than some taken in the early rounds. He should have been drafted. Later round IOL (6-7) were no where near his talent. I assume the Patriots didn't draft him because they had drafted Bryan Stork the year before. Still didn't prevent them from picking him up as an UDFA post 2015 draft. In regards to 5th round pick Marcus Cannon... Cannon's late round pick is attributed to his lymphoma diagnosis. He was very good in college (0 sacks given up in 2009). He was drafted by the Patriots despite drafting 1st round draft pick Nate Solder the same draft... AND having 2nd rounders Matt Light and Sebastian Vollmer already on the roster! You don't think OT is a priority in NE...? Cannon remained on the roster for the next 5 years as depth. Starting when there were injuries at RT... developing. Only when he was proven, did he get a starting job. This wasn't a "whoopsie-daisey-we-just-get-lucky-and-hope-it-works-out" move. He was under-drafted because of health concerns. And the Patriots could afford the risk because there were already deep at the position. Trent Brown may have been drafted in the 7th round. But he was identified as a regular starting talent well before the Patriots traded for him. This is what Von Miller said about him in pre-2017 season (a full year before Patriots traded for him). "He's the best right tackle in the National Football League! And he may even be a top-five tackle, period, in the National Football League. There’s not another tackle who’s that tall, that big and can move the way he moves." A 3rd/5th round swap...? And they pulled it off (again) while drafting a 1st round OT (Wynn). Again, does this resemble a team that just gets lucky with their picks...? A team that believes they can get by with late-round OT's...? Oh and let's not forget that LaAdrian Waddle had already been retained/re-signed prior to the Brown trade, Wynn draft... You know, the guy who started Super Bowl LII at RT... Let's not pretend that OT is a position the Patriots take lightly... that their plan is to start inexperienced, late-round OT's. They stack them deep and are always thinking about depth and future. They don't overpay for other's refuse and hope to plug the other side with late round hopefuls...
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Post by boltnut on May 16, 2019 14:36:06 GMT -7
Since the end of 2007 season (when our OL started breaking down) we've drafted 4 OT's... that's 12 years. Corey Clark (7th), Fluker (1st), Tevi (6th), and Pipkins (3rd). The only serious attempt at OT was Fluker. And half the experts knew he was a guard. Of the people that thought he was an OT, all of them knew he was RT-only. Before we cry for 6 OT's, let's try 1 OT. One that is actually good. One that isn't an OG/RT-only... We've had multiple chances. Meanwhile, the Eagles traded up to get Andre Dillard in front of the Houston Texans (who got stuck with Tytus Howard). They obviously get it. We obviously don't. They drafted pro-bowler Marcus McNeil in 2006 so they didn't need to draft an LT for a bit until he got hurt in 2011 after signing a big deal a year or two earlier. Then tried with Gaither. I shouldn't even say his name. Now, we have Okung, who is a pro bowler, and apparently Pipkins (3rd rounder) as his understudy. From day 1, they knew McNeil's career could be over soon due to stenosis. It's the reason he fell to the 2nd round in the first place. They let that OL fall apart... then tried to fix-it with a bunch of over-priced cast-offs.
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xenos
Full Member
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Post by xenos on May 16, 2019 17:20:45 GMT -7
They drafted pro-bowler Marcus McNeil in 2006 so they didn't need to draft an LT for a bit until he got hurt in 2011 after signing a big deal a year or two earlier. Then tried with Gaither. I shouldn't even say his name. Now, we have Okung, who is a pro bowler, and apparently Pipkins (3rd rounder) as his understudy. From day 1, they knew McNeil's career could be over soon due to stenosis. It's the reason he fell to the 2nd round in the first place. They let that OL fall apart... then tried to fix-it with a bunch of over-priced cast-offs. I remember it differently. They knew stenosis could be manageable and thought he could have a good career in spite of the condition. I don't know how much of the stenosis was related to his neck injuries, but it is what it is. Obviously hindsight, we should have drafted Whitworth instead.
I will say this though, TT has dedicated resources towards the OL whether through FA or the draft. It just hasn't worked out for whatever reason especially with the draft. Whether it's because of dumb luck and injuries, poor coaching, or just wrong scheme fit. But TT has tried. Dunlap looks pretty good in 2013 and 2014 before all his concussions. Orlando Franklin was a pro bowl guard with the Broncos and subsequently dropped off the face of the map with us. Christ Watt looked promising at first when he became center in 2014. I particularly remembered the Rams game where he was matched up against Aaron Donald and did quite well. And then things just collapsed. I also like the Tuerk pick at the time but that unfortunately didn't work out either.
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Post by moekid on May 17, 2019 10:30:23 GMT -7
You should read the excerpt I posted on the previous page. Their Super Bowl winning oline was mid to late rounders including both OT’s. They may be better than anyone else at identifying talent. That’s certainly possible. I think they’re better than anyone at coaching them up. I'm well aware of how NE put their OL together. There are several things you left out, however. I addressed many of those in a previous post but will add to that now... First off, Thuney and Mason were both quality OG's in college and got drafted where good OG's get drafted (3rd and 4th rounds). Secondly, Andrews going undrafted was just a joke. Part of it was that draft was deep in IOL. Some experts worried that his frame wouldn't hold much more weight (295). But I had him as a 5th rounder. I raved about him back in the CMB days. His ability to pull, get to the second level, and screen block were better than some taken in the early rounds. He should have been drafted. Later round IOL (6-7) were no where near his talent. I assume the Patriots didn't draft him because they had drafted Bryan Stork the year before. Still didn't prevent them from picking him up as an UDFA post 2015 draft. In regards to 5th round pick Marcus Cannon... Cannon's late round pick is attributed to his lymphoma diagnosis. He was very good in college (0 sacks given up in 2009). He was drafted by the Patriots despite drafting 1st round draft pick Nate Solder the same draft... AND having 2nd rounders Matt Light and Sebastian Vollmer already on the roster! You don't think OT is a priority in NE...? Cannon remained on the roster for the next 5 years as depth. Starting when there were injuries at RT... developing. Only when he was proven, did he get a starting job. This wasn't a "whoopsie-daisey-we-just-get-lucky-and-hope-it-works-out" move. He was under-drafted because of health concerns. And the Patriots could afford the risk because there were already deep at the position. Trent Brown may have been drafted in the 7th round. But he was identified as a regular starting talent well before the Patriots traded for him. This is what Von Miller said about him in pre-2017 season (a full year before Patriots traded for him). "He's the best right tackle in the National Football League! And he may even be a top-five tackle, period, in the National Football League. There’s not another tackle who’s that tall, that big and can move the way he moves." A 3rd/5th round swap...? And they pulled it off (again) while drafting a 1st round OT (Wynn). Again, does this resemble a team that just gets lucky with their picks...? A team that believes they can get by with late-round OT's...? Oh and let's not forget that LaAdrian Waddle had already been retained/re-signed prior to the Brown trade, Wynn draft... You know, the guy who started Super Bowl LII at RT... Let's not pretend that OT is a position the Patriots take lightly... that their plan is to start inexperienced, late-round OT's. They stack them deep and are always thinking about depth and future. They don't overpay for other's refuse and hope to plug the other side with late round hopefuls... Let's not pretend that anybody said the Patriots take the OL or OT position lightly. It appears from your post above that you fall into the "they identify talent better than anybody" category as everybody you mentioned should have been drafted much higher. So they are just better than any of the other 31 teams in drafting oline. That certainly could be the case.
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Post by sonorajim on May 17, 2019 11:30:02 GMT -7
LOL! Obviously! Who needs DT, LB, FS? Just outscore them like the LAR! Where did I ever claim that...? For the record, my mock draft was: 1. OT 2. FS 3. WR 4. DT 5. Edge 6. RB 7. LB Feel free to post your own draft on the Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda thread. So far, only 1 taker. The rest are standing pat on Chargers draft picks... blasting anyone who doesn't stand in line. In the pre-draft discussions I listed my "needs" evaluation numerous times. DT-LB-OL-FS more or less in order of talent available at our pick. I hoped for DT at 28 and double dipping at DT later. The only player I called correctly was Adderley but I was still kinda shocked at how close my projection was to how the team drafted.
I was responding to the "draft 6 OTs & an edge rusher" post which I thought was tounge-in-cheek and thought I was responding in like kind. If I messed up? Whoops! 'Scusa.
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xenos
Full Member
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Post by xenos on May 17, 2019 18:50:12 GMT -7
An article from a few years ago about the value of an LT in today's NFL:
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Post by totallybolted on May 17, 2019 20:14:31 GMT -7
An article from a few years ago about the value of an LT in today's NFL:
really enjoy your input. Thanks for digging this stuff up.
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Post by chargerfreak on May 18, 2019 2:54:04 GMT -7
Passing league. QB. EDGE Rusher. OT
In that order. I have spoken.
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