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Post by frozendisc on Jul 22, 2019 7:40:04 GMT -7
It just seems crazy that these decisions to hold out get made. I mean good God, you are 'only' going to make 5.6 million this season, and then next year sign for some ridiculously higher amount. Not only will you pay me more than 5.6 million this year, you will throw away the agreement we had previously made, and write a new one.......or I am not showing up. The sense of entitlement is off the charts........ Goes on every year with multiple multiple players. You better get used to it too. The chickens are coming home to roost. I'll explain for the hockey players in the audience: Everybody wants good draft picks/years etc. Everybody wants multiple years of good drafts. Ok, but those contracts end. Good players are going to want paid. We have multiple players lined up year after year now. Hell, Joe is ready to give Joey Bosa 200 million dollars tomorrow morning !!! Good draft years, with good players, are rotating around to us. This is another reason the handling of Gordon is VITAL. It will set the tone for the next players coming up. What message do you want to send TT ? How will it affect our culture ? "Bolt Gang, or Don't Pay" ?ATTACK ME FANBOYS FOR EXPOSING THE TRUTH FOR YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "what message do you want to send TT?".......very important question you ask here. Let us look at this with no true emotions towards either outcome. We can reasonable conclude that there have been conversations between club and player. We can assume that in those conversations, some numbers were voiced, most likely from player's agent. I will go out on a limb here and guess that the numbers being voiced were not remotely close to what the club had in mind, resulting in a 'we have a year left in this current contract, let's see how things go, talk more during this season'.....or something along those lines. The frustration is palatable for player, and the decision to go public is taken. Once it goes public, the question you ask is very much a part of things, and it gets complicated.....very complicated. In my experience, using the media (regardless of which side does it) is almost a death knell to getting a deal done. For me, TT has to set the message as 'the club will not be blackmailed', or this issue will happen regularly. As the talent on the roster increases, so do the instances where the club must walk from a talented player due to cost. We saw this recently with TW, as there was not a chance TT would pay what TW could get on the open market. It will be interesting to see this play out, but I am believing we see Gordon week 10.
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Post by chargerfreak on Jul 22, 2019 10:01:52 GMT -7
Goes on every year with multiple multiple players. You better get used to it too. The chickens are coming home to roost. I'll explain for the hockey players in the audience: Everybody wants good draft picks/years etc. Everybody wants multiple years of good drafts. Ok, but those contracts end. Good players are going to want paid. We have multiple players lined up year after year now. Hell, Joe is ready to give Joey Bosa 200 million dollars tomorrow morning !!! Good draft years, with good players, are rotating around to us. This is another reason the handling of Gordon is VITAL. It will set the tone for the next players coming up. What message do you want to send TT ? How will it affect our culture ? "Bolt Gang, or Don't Pay" ?ATTACK ME FANBOYS FOR EXPOSING THE TRUTH FOR YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Biased much ? That is for a guy with 5 sacks and only played 7 games last year. How is the analysis on THAT ? Wow.
I am Freak Approving the Mega Early Deal Special for Bosa BTW
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Post by Chargeroo on Jul 22, 2019 10:02:59 GMT -7
MG does have some leverage, we have a team that thinks they are contenders for the big prize and they'd like to have their number one RB for the season. Losing him will diminish our chances. However, when the season ends and they know he wants to move on things change. Then they can look to the draft for a suitable replacement and have another RB tied up for a few years at a lower cost. I still think they'll work it out - MG wants to remain a Charger and the Chargers want him. That sound like a meeting of the minds should be able to be worked out. A little compromise is all that's needed.  |
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Post by chargerfreak on Jul 22, 2019 10:08:53 GMT -7
Goes on every year with multiple multiple players. You better get used to it too. The chickens are coming home to roost. I'll explain for the hockey players in the audience: Everybody wants good draft picks/years etc. Everybody wants multiple years of good drafts. Ok, but those contracts end. Good players are going to want paid. We have multiple players lined up year after year now. Hell, Joe is ready to give Joey Bosa 200 million dollars tomorrow morning !!! Good draft years, with good players, are rotating around to us. This is another reason the handling of Gordon is VITAL. It will set the tone for the next players coming up. What message do you want to send TT ? How will it affect our culture ? "Bolt Gang, or Don't Pay" ?ATTACK ME FANBOYS FOR EXPOSING THE TRUTH FOR YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"what message do you want to send TT?".......very important question you ask here. Let us look at this with no true emotions towards either outcome. We can reasonable conclude that there have been conversations between club and player. We can assume that in those conversations, some numbers were voiced, most likely from player's agent. I will go out on a limb here and guess that the numbers being voiced were not remotely close to what the club had in mind, resulting in a 'we have a year left in this current contract, let's see how things go, talk more during this season'.....or something along those lines. The frustration is palatable for player, and the decision to go public is taken. Once it goes public, the question you ask is very much a part of things, and it gets complicated.....very complicated. In my experience, using the media (regardless of which side does it) is almost a death knell to getting a deal done. For me, TT has to set the message as 'the club will not be blackmailed', or this issue will happen regularly. As the talent on the roster increases, so do the instances where the club must walk from a talented player due to cost. We saw this recently with TW, as there was not a chance TT would pay what TW could get on the open market. It will be interesting to see this play out, but I am believing we see Gordon week 10. I would rather go play with the Lions down in my den than type this, but I'll do it anyway:
That was an excellent, excellent take. Post Nominated POTD.
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Post by ohioboltfan on Jul 22, 2019 10:33:00 GMT -7
Barnwell's NFL fact check: Don't be surprised if these 7 things happen #7 is Don't be surprised if ... Melvin Gordon takes a step back I wrote about the Gordon conundrum in February, before the former first-round pick announced that he was holding out in the hopes of getting a new deal from the Chargers. The Wisconsin standout is entering the fifth year of his rookie deal and coming off what was unquestionably his best season as a pro. If you're making a list of the ways to tell whether a back was an elite talent, though, Gordon would fail most of the criteria. Last season was the first in which Gordon was an efficient back in four tries. It was the first time he topped 4.0 yards per carry as a pro, and while yards per carry can be a misleading stat, his inefficiency is further confirmed by the infrequency with which he increased his team's chances of scoring by ESPN's Expected Points model. Last season was the first in which Gordon's runs increased his team's expected points rate more than 38% of the time. League average over that time frame for running backs is 39%. Gordon adds value as a receiver, but he racked up 182 catches for 1,577 receiving yards from 2015 to 2018, which is about what Gio Bernard (166 catches for 1,415 yards) generated with far fewer snaps. You can succeed with this profile if you stay healthy and rack up a bunch of huge runs like Saquon Barkley did a year ago, but Gordon has just one play of more than 50 yards across 1,079 career touches, and he has missed nine games over four seasons, including four in 2018. Also disconcerting for Gordon's case as a franchise running back is that the Chargers haven't missed him when he has been absent. Over Gordon's four seasons, the Chargers are 26-29 (.472) with Gordon in the lineup, averaging 23.7 points. Without Gordon, the same Chargers have gone 4-5 (.444) while averaging 23.1 points. To put that in context, the Chargers have also spent a huge chunk of that time without star wideout Keenan Allen, and his absence has been far more meaningful. Philip Rivers & Co. are 23-18 (.561) with Allen in the lineup and just 7-16 (.304) otherwise; they average 24.4 points with Allen in the fold and 22.3 points when the Cal product has been sidelined. The number that comes up as proof of Gordon's excellence, invariably, is touchdowns. It's ironic given that Gordon failed to score on 217 touches as a rookie, an anomaly which immediately corrected itself the following season. Analyses looking to back Gordon's claims will throw that season out as if it doesn't count, but over his full four-year career, he has now scored 38 touchdowns. Those touchdowns are the fifth most of any NFL player since 2015. Does Gordon have a knack for scoring more than a typical player in the same situations? I'm skeptical. When you look at how he has performed inside the 5-yard line, where backs are going to accrue the bulk of their touchdowns, he has been about average. Given the chances of any NFL back scoring from each spot inside the 5-yard line and Gordon's various opportunities from those spots, we would have expected Gordon's 41 attempts to deliver 17.5 touchdowns. Gordon has topped that mark by scoring ... 18 touchdowns, or an extra half-touchdown every four years. He has been an average back near the goal line. The case for Gordon as a transcendent back relies upon his ability to score TDs outside of goal-to-go situations and playing the way he did on a carry-by-carry basis in 2018 while simultaneously staying healthy. It's certainly possible that the guy we saw last season shows up for a second time and plays 16 games in 2019, but history suggests that Gordon is likely to fall short. www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27234797/barnwell-nfl-fact-check-surprised-7-things-happen |
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Post by chargerfreak on Jul 22, 2019 10:39:57 GMT -7
Barnwell's NFL fact check: Don't be surprised if these 7 things happen #7 is Don't be surprised if ... Melvin Gordon takes a step back I wrote about the Gordon conundrum in February, before the former first-round pick announced that he was holding out in the hopes of getting a new deal from the Chargers. The Wisconsin standout is entering the fifth year of his rookie deal and coming off what was unquestionably his best season as a pro. If you're making a list of the ways to tell whether a back was an elite talent, though, Gordon would fail most of the criteria. Last season was the first in which Gordon was an efficient back in four tries. It was the first time he topped 4.0 yards per carry as a pro, and while yards per carry can be a misleading stat, his inefficiency is further confirmed by the infrequency with which he increased his team's chances of scoring by ESPN's Expected Points model. Last season was the first in which Gordon's runs increased his team's expected points rate more than 38% of the time. League average over that time frame for running backs is 39%. Gordon adds value as a receiver, but he racked up 182 catches for 1,577 receiving yards from 2015 to 2018, which is about what Gio Bernard (166 catches for 1,415 yards) generated with far fewer snaps. You can succeed with this profile if you stay healthy and rack up a bunch of huge runs like Saquon Barkley did a year ago, but Gordon has just one play of more than 50 yards across 1,079 career touches, and he has missed nine games over four seasons, including four in 2018. Also disconcerting for Gordon's case as a franchise running back is that the Chargers haven't missed him when he has been absent. Over Gordon's four seasons, the Chargers are 26-29 (.472) with Gordon in the lineup, averaging 23.7 points. Without Gordon, the same Chargers have gone 4-5 (.444) while averaging 23.1 points. To put that in context, the Chargers have also spent a huge chunk of that time without star wideout Keenan Allen, and his absence has been far more meaningful. Philip Rivers & Co. are 23-18 (.561) with Allen in the lineup and just 7-16 (.304) otherwise; they average 24.4 points with Allen in the fold and 22.3 points when the Cal product has been sidelined. The number that comes up as proof of Gordon's excellence, invariably, is touchdowns. It's ironic given that Gordon failed to score on 217 touches as a rookie, an anomaly which immediately corrected itself the following season. Analyses looking to back Gordon's claims will throw that season out as if it doesn't count, but over his full four-year career, he has now scored 38 touchdowns. Those touchdowns are the fifth most of any NFL player since 2015. Does Gordon have a knack for scoring more than a typical player in the same situations? I'm skeptical. When you look at how he has performed inside the 5-yard line, where backs are going to accrue the bulk of their touchdowns, he has been about average. Given the chances of any NFL back scoring from each spot inside the 5-yard line and Gordon's various opportunities from those spots, we would have expected Gordon's 41 attempts to deliver 17.5 touchdowns. Gordon has topped that mark by scoring ... 18 touchdowns, or an extra half-touchdown every four years. He has been an average back near the goal line. The case for Gordon as a transcendent back relies upon his ability to score TDs outside of goal-to-go situations and playing the way he did on a carry-by-carry basis in 2018 while simultaneously staying healthy. It's certainly possible that the guy we saw last season shows up for a second time and plays 16 games in 2019, but history suggests that Gordon is likely to fall short. www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27234797/barnwell-nfl-fact-check-surprised-7-things-happenHere is a fact check that Barnwell did not check. Our offensive line's run blocking those years.
maybe he'll have a follow up article on that.
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Post by headtrip on Jul 22, 2019 13:41:48 GMT -7
Here's another fact- NFL stats are utterly, completely, and absolutely meaningless.
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Post by totallybolted on Jul 22, 2019 13:53:30 GMT -7
Here's another fact- NFL stats are utterly, completely, and absolutely meaningless. That needs a qualifier or I think Thumper may actually show up here.
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Post by joemcrugby on Jul 22, 2019 14:28:57 GMT -7
Barnwell's NFL fact check: Don't be surprised if these 7 things happen #7 is Don't be surprised if ... Melvin Gordon takes a step back I wrote about the Gordon conundrum in February, before the former first-round pick announced that he was holding out in the hopes of getting a new deal from the Chargers. The Wisconsin standout is entering the fifth year of his rookie deal and coming off what was unquestionably his best season as a pro. If you're making a list of the ways to tell whether a back was an elite talent, though, Gordon would fail most of the criteria. Last season was the first in which Gordon was an efficient back in four tries. It was the first time he topped 4.0 yards per carry as a pro, and while yards per carry can be a misleading stat, his inefficiency is further confirmed by the infrequency with which he increased his team's chances of scoring by ESPN's Expected Points model. Last season was the first in which Gordon's runs increased his team's expected points rate more than 38% of the time. League average over that time frame for running backs is 39%. Gordon adds value as a receiver, but he racked up 182 catches for 1,577 receiving yards from 2015 to 2018, which is about what Gio Bernard (166 catches for 1,415 yards) generated with far fewer snaps. You can succeed with this profile if you stay healthy and rack up a bunch of huge runs like Saquon Barkley did a year ago, but Gordon has just one play of more than 50 yards across 1,079 career touches, and he has missed nine games over four seasons, including four in 2018. Also disconcerting for Gordon's case as a franchise running back is that the Chargers haven't missed him when he has been absent. Over Gordon's four seasons, the Chargers are 26-29 (.472) with Gordon in the lineup, averaging 23.7 points. Without Gordon, the same Chargers have gone 4-5 (.444) while averaging 23.1 points. To put that in context, the Chargers have also spent a huge chunk of that time without star wideout Keenan Allen, and his absence has been far more meaningful. Philip Rivers & Co. are 23-18 (.561) with Allen in the lineup and just 7-16 (.304) otherwise; they average 24.4 points with Allen in the fold and 22.3 points when the Cal product has been sidelined. The number that comes up as proof of Gordon's excellence, invariably, is touchdowns. It's ironic given that Gordon failed to score on 217 touches as a rookie, an anomaly which immediately corrected itself the following season. Analyses looking to back Gordon's claims will throw that season out as if it doesn't count, but over his full four-year career, he has now scored 38 touchdowns. Those touchdowns are the fifth most of any NFL player since 2015. Does Gordon have a knack for scoring more than a typical player in the same situations? I'm skeptical. When you look at how he has performed inside the 5-yard line, where backs are going to accrue the bulk of their touchdowns, he has been about average. Given the chances of any NFL back scoring from each spot inside the 5-yard line and Gordon's various opportunities from those spots, we would have expected Gordon's 41 attempts to deliver 17.5 touchdowns. Gordon has topped that mark by scoring ... 18 touchdowns, or an extra half-touchdown every four years. He has been an average back near the goal line. The case for Gordon as a transcendent back relies upon his ability to score TDs outside of goal-to-go situations and playing the way he did on a carry-by-carry basis in 2018 while simultaneously staying healthy. It's certainly possible that the guy we saw last season shows up for a second time and plays 16 games in 2019, but history suggests that Gordon is likely to fall short. www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27234797/barnwell-nfl-fact-check-surprised-7-things-happenHere is a fact check that Barnwell did not check. Our offensive line's run blocking those years.
maybe he'll have a follow up article on that.
When Lynn first arrived on the scene, he was highly critical of Gordon's hesitancy to attack when running behind the LOS. It took Gordon a good half-season before he started "letting it go" instead of hesitating. It was more than sub-par blocking that led to sub-par performance from Melvin during the first 2 & 1/2 seasons when Lynn finally got through to him.
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Post by totallybolted on Jul 22, 2019 14:36:41 GMT -7
Here is a fact check that Barnwell did not check. Our offensive line's run blocking those years.
maybe he'll have a follow up article on that.
When Lynn first arrived on the scene, he was highly critical of Gordon's hesitancy to attack when running behind the LOS. It took Gordon a good half-season before he started "letting it go" instead of hesitating. It was more than sub-par blocking that led to sub-par performance from Melvin during the first 2 & 1/2 seasons when Lynn finally got through to him. I think he was benched by Lynn for it too. Injuries were a cover up
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Post by moekid on Jul 22, 2019 15:37:19 GMT -7
Here is a fact check that Barnwell did not check. Our offensive line's run blocking those years.
maybe he'll have a follow up article on that.
When Lynn first arrived on the scene, he was highly critical of Gordon's hesitancy to attack when running behind the LOS. It took Gordon a good half-season before he started "letting it go" instead of hesitating. It was more than sub-par blocking that led to sub-par performance from Melvin during the first 2 & 1/2 seasons when Lynn finally got through to him. agree. that was my beef with him. he was so used to those big gaping holes at Wisconsin he didn't know how to run in real traffic. we should be able to reap the rewards of Lynn's tutelage
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Post by frozendisc on Jul 22, 2019 16:24:17 GMT -7
"what message do you want to send TT?".......very important question you ask here. Let us look at this with no true emotions towards either outcome. We can reasonable conclude that there have been conversations between club and player. We can assume that in those conversations, some numbers were voiced, most likely from player's agent. I will go out on a limb here and guess that the numbers being voiced were not remotely close to what the club had in mind, resulting in a 'we have a year left in this current contract, let's see how things go, talk more during this season'.....or something along those lines. The frustration is palatable for player, and the decision to go public is taken. Once it goes public, the question you ask is very much a part of things, and it gets complicated.....very complicated. In my experience, using the media (regardless of which side does it) is almost a death knell to getting a deal done. For me, TT has to set the message as 'the club will not be blackmailed', or this issue will happen regularly. As the talent on the roster increases, so do the instances where the club must walk from a talented player due to cost. We saw this recently with TW, as there was not a chance TT would pay what TW could get on the open market. It will be interesting to see this play out, but I am believing we see Gordon week 10. I would rather go play with the Lions down in my den than type this, but I'll do it anyway:
That was an excellent, excellent take. Post Nominated POTD.
You are not fooling anyone, as we all know you only go play with the lions after they are quite full and way sleepy.....
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Post by joemcrugby on Jul 22, 2019 16:43:57 GMT -7
Bosa is vital: his production on the field is irreplaceable and plays a non-fungible position, so barring a serious injury in 2019 Joey will have earned the early extension. Biased much ? That is for a guy with 5 sacks and only played 7 games last year. How is the analysis on THAT ? Wow.
I am Freak Approving the Mega Early Deal Special for Bosa BTW
Bosa affects every part of the defense with his presence, while the Chargers simply shift gears when MG is missing (a bit more passing, a bit less rushing and very little drop-off in overall production). Unlike MG, some franchise (if not the Chargers) is going to pay Bosa close to $20 million / season at a position that is greatly valued in the NFL (unlike RB). The Chargers are an entirely different defense with Bosa on the field, and this is coming from a dude who was very critical about Joey’s rookie holdout over what for one player is a rounding error. Them’s the facts, jack!! 🤷♂️ 😉 |
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Post by moekid on Jul 22, 2019 17:23:44 GMT -7
Biased much ? That is for a guy with 5 sacks and only played 7 games last year. How is the analysis on THAT ? Wow.
I am Freak Approving the Mega Early Deal Special for Bosa BTW
Bosa affects every part of the defense with his presence, while the Chargers simply shift gears when MG is missing (a bit more passing, a bit less rushing and very little drop-off in overall production). Unlike MG, some franchise (if not the Chargers) is going to pay Bosa close to $20 million / season at a position that is greatly valued in the NFL (unlike RB). The Chargers are an entirely different defense with Bosa on the field, and this is coming from a dude who was very critical about Joey’s rookie holdout over what for one player is a rounding error. Them’s the facts, jack!! 🤷♂️ 😉 I love Bosa and agree that he’s an impact player. But we’re going to have big problems resigning him. He’s going to want Donald or Mack money and he’s not on their level. He’s already shown the will to hold out over much less. Finally, the jury is out on Bosa because of health. His foot isn’t fixed and may never be. I want to see a full season from him. |
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Post by frozendisc on Jul 22, 2019 18:12:16 GMT -7
Bosa affects every part of the defense with his presence, while the Chargers simply shift gears when MG is missing (a bit more passing, a bit less rushing and very little drop-off in overall production). Unlike MG, some franchise (if not the Chargers) is going to pay Bosa close to $20 million / season at a position that is greatly valued in the NFL (unlike RB). The Chargers are an entirely different defense with Bosa on the field, and this is coming from a dude who was very critical about Joey’s rookie holdout over what for one player is a rounding error. Them’s the facts, jack!! 🤷♂️ 😉 I love Bosa and agree that he’s an impact player. But we’re going to have big problems resigning him. He’s going to want Donald or Mack money and he’s not on their level. He’s already shown the will to hold out over much less. Finally, the jury is out on Bosa because of health. His foot isn’t fixed and may never be. I want to see a full season from him. If Bosa has a long term foot ailment, he could hold out until the sun stops rising and there will still be no team willing to give him top money. Yes, you can be assured the Bolts will be behind the whispers about his foot as other teams look into signing him. You can't fake or hide a foot issue......
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