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Post by joemcrugby on May 14, 2019 11:32:52 GMT -7
Lamp makes the team regardless of whether he is starting in 2019 because (1) he can play both tackle and guard, and (2) the Chargers only gain $325K in cap savings if he is released ($1.818 million cap charge if he's on the roster, $1.494 million if he's cut loose). <<Thanks for the assist, TB>> Different story in 2020: If he isn't starting, Lamp would have a $2.1 million cap charge if he's on the roster while the Chargers would only suffer a $700K cap hit if he is released ($1.4 million in cap savings). If Lamp is still a sub in 2019, it's highly likely that he'll be cut loose in 2020 as he would have had a full year's opportunity to go through OTA's, training camp and a full season while healthy for the first time while not showing the ability to progress. www.spotrac.com/nfl/los-angeles-chargers/forrest-lamp-21779/Starting....? Play both OG and OT...? Get real.....he has done neither at the NFL level. It isn't about the money, it is the roster spot. If they determine Lamp isn't going to recover from the ACL enough to amount to equal to the reserve level players he is competing against, he gets released. In other words, if they assess that the talent he had when drafted will never return, it is over..... Can you give me the inside info where they have made a determination that he isn't going to recover from the ACL to play reserve level? If that were the case, he'd already be gone and an interior lineman would have been drafted. Lamp is not gone as he is fully participating in OTA's with no knee support apparatus. He will be on the 2019 roster. Bank on it. 2020? It all depends on 2019.
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Post by chargerfreak on May 14, 2019 12:13:41 GMT -7
Starting....? Play both OG and OT...? Get real.....he has done neither at the NFL level. It isn't about the money, it is the roster spot. If they determine Lamp isn't going to recover from the ACL enough to amount to equal to the reserve level players he is competing against, he gets released. In other words, if they assess that the talent he had when drafted will never return, it is over..... Can you give me the inside info where they have made a determination that he isn't going to recover from the ACL to play reserve level? If that were the case, he'd already be gone and an interior lineman would have been drafted. Lamp is not gone as he is fully participating in OTA's with no knee support apparatus. He will be on the 2019 roster. Bank on it. 2020? It all depends on 2019. Hell he was LEADING the OTA line group !!!! HA. I laugh. Good post.
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Post by Chargeroo on May 14, 2019 15:30:41 GMT -7
Rivers is good at getting rid of the ball.......giving him more time will equate to more wins. Of course. I'm just saying it starts at the interior OL. It seems it's become "the thing" to say it starts with the IOL but let's not forget the best pass rushers are the DE's and OLB's (depending on the defense being played). In the AFCW the best pass rushers are playing against the OT's with the exception of one DT at KC.
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Post by joemcrugby on May 14, 2019 16:42:38 GMT -7
Of course. I'm just saying it starts at the interior OL. It seems it's become "the thing" to say it starts with the IOL but let's not forget the best pass rushers are the DE's and OLB's (depending on the defense being played). In the AFCW the best pass rushers are playing against the OT's with the exception of one DT at KC. True, but PR is great at avoiding pressure from the edge so long as there is an actual pocket available to step up into as he keeps his eyes focused downfield the entire time. Interior pressure forces PR out of the pocket, and I cannot think that anyone of us enjoys the giraffe imitation. 😉 |
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xenos
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Post by xenos on May 14, 2019 16:53:36 GMT -7
I don't think you understand what I'm saying. The interior OL is more important than the OTs for a QB like Rivers. You fix that problem and even having two Tevi at both OT position will not be as big of a problem. Clearly it is best to be awesome at both interior OL and the OT's......but having Tevi at LOT, and somebody worse than Tevi at ROT, it would not matter how good the interior OL was. Teams would just clog the middle up, and then kill Rivers......
I get you prefer to build from the inside out, but I think TT needs to build as they come along. I am hoping Pipkins becomes a solid ROT this year, making it possible he could be the answer at LOT in a couple years. Regardless, TT needs to keep trying....OG's, OC's, OT's......until he has five that are solid. How exactly? Is this the same clogging up the middle that worked against Brees or Brady? If teams dedicate more players to rushing up the middle or clogging it as you say, then it opens up plays in the perimeter not just in the passing game but also in the running game.
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xenos
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Post by xenos on May 14, 2019 16:54:14 GMT -7
It seems it's become "the thing" to say it starts with the IOL but let's not forget the best pass rushers are the DE's and OLB's (depending on the defense being played). In the AFCW the best pass rushers are playing against the OT's with the exception of one DT at KC. Interior pressure forces PR out of the pocket, and I cannot think that anyone of us enjoys the giraffe imitation. 😉 I feel like I've been saying this for the last two pages but no one understands except you Joe.
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Post by boltnut on May 14, 2019 19:39:13 GMT -7
Lamp makes the team regardless of whether he is starting in 2019 because (1) he can play both tackle and guard, and (2) the Chargers only gain $325K in cap savings if he is released ($1.818 million cap charge if he's on the roster, $1.494 million if he's cut loose). <<Thanks for the assist, TB>> Different story in 2020: If he isn't starting, Lamp would have a $2.1 million cap charge if he's on the roster while the Chargers would only suffer a $700K cap hit if he is released ($1.4 million in cap savings). If Lamp is still a sub in 2019, it's highly likely that he'll be cut loose in 2020 as he would have had a full year's opportunity to go through OTA's, training camp and a full season while healthy for the first time while not showing the ability to progress. www.spotrac.com/nfl/los-angeles-chargers/forrest-lamp-21779/Starting....? Play both OG and OT...? Get real.....he has done neither at the NFL level. It isn't about the money, it is the roster spot. If they determine Lamp isn't going to recover from the ACL enough to amount to equal to the reserve level players he is competing against, he gets released. In other words, if they assess that the talent he had when drafted will never return, it is over..... If Lamp can't beat out Quiz, Toner, Scott, and Drango... we got problems.
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Post by boltnut on May 14, 2019 20:17:44 GMT -7
True, but PR is great at avoiding pressure from the edge so long as there is an actual pocket available to step up into as he keeps his eyes focused downfield the entire time.Interior pressure forces PR out of the pocket, and I cannot think that anyone of us enjoys the giraffe imitation. 😉 I feel like I've been saying this for the last two pages but no one understands except you Joe. I don't think anyone is saying that IOL is not important. But to expect that PR steps up every play to avoid the outside pass rush is poor planning. We're arguing that the OT's need to be upgraded... for several obvious reasons. 1) Your best pass rushers are outside... as Roo points out. 2) If your OT's can't hold their blocks, you get no vertical patterns and defenses condense the field. 3) If your OT's can't hold their own, you end up keeping TE's and RB's in to protect them and can't send them out into the pattern. Almost all of your great offenses (Pats, Rams, Saints, Steelers, Chiefs, Colts, Packers, Eagles) have very good OT's that help open up their offenses.
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xenos
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Post by xenos on May 15, 2019 16:41:57 GMT -7
I feel like I've been saying this for the last two pages but no one understands except you Joe. I don't think anyone is saying that IOL is not important. But to expect that PR steps up every play to avoid the outside pass rush is poor planning. We're arguing that the OT's need to be upgraded... for several obvious reasons. 1) Your best pass rushers are outside... as Roo points out. 2) If your OT's can't hold their blocks, you get no vertical patterns and defenses condense the field. 3) If your OT's can't hold their own, you end up keeping TE's and RB's in to protect them and can't send them out into the pattern. Almost all of your great offenses (Pats, Rams, Saints, Steelers, Chiefs, Colts, Packers, Eagles) have very good OT's that help open up their offenses. I would argue that about half of those benefit more from their interior OL than OTs especially the pocket passers. And the interior OL was also more well known and important.
Steelers: Pouncey and Decastro Colts: Nelson and Kelly Saints: Unger before he retired (hence the trade to get a center of the future), Larry Warford and Andrus Peat. Prior to this grouping, the Saints specifically dedicated more money to the guard positions.
The Pats and Chiefs are interesting since there is no real standout. It feels like they can just replace someone and the coaching and offensive scheme takes care of it. Though I will say that Scar is the man and can make anything good if not great for the Patriots.
Times are changing and hence defenses are getting more DTs that can push and rush the passer. It's one of the reasons that the AFC East loaded up on those types of DTs in the draft. One of the keys to taking down someone like Brady.
Edit: With regards to the bolded part, I think you misjudge how amazing Rivers is at pocket movement. He's on par with Brady and Brees. And there's certain things that he can do that they can't. The difference is that their respective teams had the talent and the coaching to give Brady and Brees their pocket.
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Post by boltnut on May 15, 2019 21:18:29 GMT -7
Again, I'm not discounting IOL at all. I think it's foolish to leave yourself weak at any offensive line spot.
But NFL GM's value OT's over IOL. They draft OT's over IOL in the 1st round by a 2:1 ratio the last 5 years. They've also drafted Pass-rushers over DT's by the same margin over the last 5 years. OG is where you go to play if you can't hack it as an OT (See Fluker and Peat).
QB's, pass-rushers, and OT's are your premium positions... always have been... always will be.
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xenos
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Post by xenos on May 16, 2019 16:32:31 GMT -7
Again, I'm not discounting IOL at all. I think it's foolish to leave yourself weak at any offensive line spot. But NFL GM's value OT's over IOL. They draft OT's over IOL in the 1st round by a 2:1 ratio the last 5 years. They've also drafted Pass-rushers over DT's by the same margin over the last 5 years. OG is where you go to play if you can't hack it as an OT (See Fluker and Peat). QB's, pass-rushers, and OT's are your premium positions... always have been... always will be.
<iframe style="position: absolute; width: 24.200000000000045px; height: 4.840000000000003px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_17211683" scrolling="no" width="24.200000000000045" height="4.840000000000003"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 24.2px; height: 4.84px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1132px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_28040593" scrolling="no" width="24.200000000000045" height="4.840000000000003"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 24.2px; height: 4.84px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 182px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_86970085" scrolling="no" width="24.200000000000045" height="4.840000000000003"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 24.2px; height: 4.84px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1132px; top: 182px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_8814579" scrolling="no" width="24.200000000000045" height="4.840000000000003"></iframe> I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying that IOL is necessarily more important than OT. What I am saying is that it's more important for a QB like Rivers. Ideally, yes it would be nice to have no weaknesses throughout the line. But if you're going to sacrifice one area while propping up another, it has to be the interior OL. Rivers has made due even with mediocre OTs (McNeill was not that great after his rookie season) because of his quick release and pocket presence. But he needs a strong center and guards. It's not a coincidence that he had one of his best seasons with Mike Pouncey at center. And it's also not a coincidence that when Pouncey started to wear down, you started seeing a ripple effect with the guards, which led to Rivers throwing more interceptions because of interior pressure.
And yes I agree that QBs, pass rushers, and OTs are premium positions. But things are slowly changing due to the way the game is played especially for the latter two positions mentioned. Historically when we think of pass rushers, we think of edge rushers like Lawrence Taylor. However, things are changing now with guys like Watt and Aaron Donald showing how effective an interior pass rusher can be. Look at this past draft for example. Yes Nick Bosa was still the #2 overall pick, but look at guys like Quinnin Williams and Ed Oliver making it into the top 10. With regards to OTs, teams are no longer afraid to pick a guard higher now. Quentin Nelson was the 6th overall pick in 2018 after all.
The NFL changes all the time. Remember when teams used to almost always run on first downs? Now the analytics are showing that it's better to pass on first down instead.
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Post by chargerfreak on May 17, 2019 2:35:03 GMT -7
Again, I'm not discounting IOL at all. I think it's foolish to leave yourself weak at any offensive line spot. But NFL GM's value OT's over IOL. They draft OT's over IOL in the 1st round by a 2:1 ratio the last 5 years. They've also drafted Pass-rushers over DT's by the same margin over the last 5 years. OG is where you go to play if you can't hack it as an OT (See Fluker and Peat). QB's, pass-rushers, and OT's are your premium positions... always have been... always will be. This was my thoughts as well. I mean I didn't know the ratio, but I do know the value.
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Post by frozendisc on May 26, 2019 11:39:21 GMT -7
Starting....? Play both OG and OT...? Get real.....he has done neither at the NFL level. It isn't about the money, it is the roster spot. If they determine Lamp isn't going to recover from the ACL enough to amount to equal to the reserve level players he is competing against, he gets released. In other words, if they assess that the talent he had when drafted will never return, it is over..... Can you give me the inside info where they have made a determination that he isn't going to recover from the ACL to play reserve level? If that were the case, he'd already be gone and an interior lineman would have been drafted. Lamp is not gone as he is fully participating in OTA's with no knee support apparatus. He will be on the 2019 roster. Bank on it. 2020? It all depends on 2019. I do not believe a determination has been made......of course that is what I posted as well. "If they determine Lamp isn't going to recover from the ACL enough to amount to equal to the reserve level players he is competing against, he gets released." The operative part is right at the start of the quote.....
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Post by chargerfreak on May 31, 2019 8:54:36 GMT -7
Browns rookie cornerback Greedy Williams is being given every opportunity to earn a starting job.
Williams is working with the first-string defense in Organized Team Activities, according to Cleveland.com. The other starting cornerback is Denzel Ward.
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Post by frozendisc on May 31, 2019 10:16:16 GMT -7
Browns rookie cornerback Greedy Williams is being given every opportunity to earn a starting job. Williams is working with the first-string defense in Organized Team Activities, according to Cleveland.com. The other starting cornerback is Denzel Ward. I liked Greedy Williams in this last draft, he has plenty of talent. Of course it must be noted, the Browns are dripping in talent, making expectations quite high for them.
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